Proven Strategies to Help Your Children Establish Healthy Boundaries

John Fuller: Welcome to Focus on the Family's weekend broadcast. We hope the following program will challenge you and encourage you in your faith journey.
Dr. John Townsend: If you get frustrated, go take a walk, go pray, go do something with your spouse. Don't do that with a child. Emotional consequences are not helpful.
John Fuller: That's Dr. John Townsend, and he joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. He's going to help you set boundaries with your children. I'm John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, I'm looking forward to this. My boys are now in their 20s, but this is the kind of information I wish I would have understood and digested with Jean to be able to do this better. We understood the concepts, but we didn't slow down to really apply them as best as we could. For that reason, we want to make sure you're equipped as a parent of younger children to be able to apply these boundaries because the outcomes are so good. Children feel more confident, more secure, even though it takes a little bit of discipline to be able to apply these as a parent. It's going to be great content.
John Fuller: Dr. John Townsend is a speaker and bestselling author, and we're covering a book he co-wrote with Dr. Henry Cloud. It's called *Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children*, and we'll encourage you to get a copy of that.
Jim Daly: That's so good. Welcome, good to have you back, John.
Dr. John Townsend: Great to be here.
Jim Daly: What are some of those obstacles that parents run into when they're setting boundaries?
Dr. John Townsend: There's two ways to look at the obstacles. First is things that kids do to oppose boundaries. They don't like them at first. They escalate sometimes and they blow up or they melt down. Sometimes they withdraw and feel hurt and they don't feel very loved. Sometimes they manipulate to get around it, but that's not the biggest obstacle. The biggest obstacle is us, the parent, and some attitudes that we have and mindsets that we have that we've got to look at. That makes the biggest difference in the world. Let me give you a few examples. One is to need the child's love. I need my child to think I'm good and loving and helpful and think positive about me. If you need your child to think positive of you, you'll never say no. You'll be the circus parent. Another one is a technical term that is very important in parenting: fragilizing. To fragilize means to think that your child is a little broken egg that you've got to walk on eggshells around, so that when a child gets uncomfortable because you're frustrating them or saying no, are they going to fall apart? Are they going to have a nervous breakdown? That's making somebody who's pretty resilient most of the time fragile. That's a problem in parenting.
Jim Daly: Let me ask you in that regard because this is a really critical point. The fact that culturally we're avoiding allowing that resilience because we're doing exactly what you're saying. We're overprotective, we're overly engaged. I think this is one of those "aha" moments for a lot of parents who are watching or listening who are the helicopter parent, the hovering parent, because they feel that's the responsibility of a parent of a three-year-old, five-year-old, nine-year-old. Why do we need to back down a little bit because of the outcomes that will occur if we don't?
Dr. John Townsend: The best way to look at that is to look at the sources for reality. One is the research. It just says if you are always keeping the child from any discomfort or unhappiness of any kind, you put out an anxious child. They feel insecure, like "I don't have the strength to handle hard things," and they don't have frustration tolerance. All of a sudden they're very scared about life because somebody took care of this for them. The second is project into the future. If I don't want him or her at nine to ever feel bad, what kind of a husband or a wife or a worker or a minister or a friend are they going to be? They're going to be overwhelmed with life all the time. The third source is let's read our Bible. What does it say in Ephesians? It says that we're supposed to build each other up with grace and truth. Grace is the love and the support and the listening, and truth is, hey, there's some house rules here. It's just not even a question anymore that the children need to know what no means and to have their own no ultimately.
Jim Daly: That's so good. We're going to do something a little different. We've got some callers who have sent their questions in knowing this program was going to occur, which I think is great. Our goal here at Focus is to help you do this parenting job as best as you can. That's always our goal, and hearing from you in this way, I think we're going to do a few, is a great way to put real people in this spot and let them ask you a question. Let's take the first one.
Guest (Female): I'm wondering at what age it's appropriate to start disciplining your child. In general, I was always taught that you just start as early as possible, but I'm wondering what age they can start connecting the cause and effect of their actions. I would assume it's before they can have a full conversation, but I'm just not sure what that point is.
Dr. John Townsend: It's a great question. I don't believe in a lot of this during infancy, the first 12 months. That child is busy just trying to figure out what the world is and where love is and where safety is, and they don't even have the neurological capacity to understand the meaning of the word no with a few exceptions. Maybe structure in feeding times and nap times later in the first year. Toddlerhood is where I believe it needs to begin, which is the 1s and 2s. That's when they can learn language. Cognitively they can go, "Oh, there's this word called no, I need to understand this." If a parent will lovingly just set out the house rules, here's how you treat your dog, or here's how you obey mom and dad, or these sort of things. When they have a bad attitude, help to correct that. That's very important and very helpful and it sets the stage. Don't start that too late. Toddlerhood is fine for that.
Jim Daly: Let me ask you especially with young children, kind of the phase we're talking about right now. The mom who is just struggling with the "get your shoes on because it's time to go." This sounds simple but it's so right. She has to repeat that or dad has to repeat that 20 times. "I said get your shoes on, we got to go." How do you create a boundary around that and enforcement of timeliness?
Dr. John Townsend: The first thing that you have to do is to realize that if you say it several times, that's the thing that we call nagging. Nagging without consequences creates insanity because the child learns, "Well, they always say it five times. I'm at number four right now, I'm fine." Isn't it interesting they do learn how to delay? You tell them—I always say give them the 30,000-foot picture. "You know, sweetheart, I used to say it seven times and I think that I'm going to change that. I'm going to do it one time and then you'll have the time out or I'll take away the toy if it doesn't happen." Well, they don't believe that because they have a thousand experiences of mom doing it or dad doing it that way. But then when you follow that up and after the one time you take the toy away or whatever, the child is now in a new reality. I'm living in a new world because I lost something and they followed up. There's going to be a conflict, there's going to be upsetness, but you have to tolerate that and be loving about it. The more you do that and don't nag but say after the first time, I've got parents that were friends that said once we did that, all of a sudden we have all this lack of angst and we had more fun times.
Jim Daly: Interesting. That's the goal, right? That things happen when asked and consequences are few and they put on their shoes. Which is the goal. You know, another concept in the same space is something you refer to as emotional consequences to avoid emotional consequences. This is another big one that we as parents tend to fail at because we get emotional. We're angry because it's now driven our temperature emotionally up. "I said to get those shoes on now." That's not helpful because that kind of reaction or direction boundary, it starts to hurt the identity of the child. They think shame, "Okay, I'm not doing the right thing for whatever reason." The child may not even understand it. "I just enjoy playing. I want to color more, I don't want to put my shoes on." But the parent's unhealthy emotional rise can lead to some issues later.
Dr. John Townsend: It reminds me of Colossians 3 where the Bible says don't exasperate or embitter your child because they'll get discouraged. That is a good scripture. It makes so much sense because when you look at it, there's this little person called a child and there's big people out here. You want the big people to be sane. They want to be loving and rational and all those things. If mom or dad blows their top with these emotional consequences, these shaming things, the kid thinks, "I live in a crazy world and it's scary because they're not safe anymore." But if the parent goes, "This is the rule, now here I'm going to be clear about it," and stays warm about it—firm but warm—the child goes, "Oh, I live in sanity and she's safe and he's safe and I can do this." If you get frustrated, go take a walk, go pray, go do something with your spouse. Don't do that with the child. Emotional consequences are not helpful.
Jim Daly: I mean, this is a thing that I've noticed even in raising my boys. You have to do everything within your power to always be the adult, to always be the calm one, the calm voice. Never move into a place where you get angry and emotionally destructive, if I could say it that way. That's a challenge because they will, boy, the teen years, will they push your buttons or what? But you have to come back to this, okay, I'm the parent, I'm not the child. But we can tend to, as parents, to get down in the mud with them.
Dr. John Townsend: What I think really helps there, Jim, is that anytime you're in that immediate crisis—a meltdown on the grocery store or somebody smoking dope at 14—whatever the meltdown is, is don't get lost in the present crisis. Think future. What I'm getting ready to do with my child, I want to play the long game. How am I going to affect them as a parent, as a somebody who's in their 30s? What I next do will get me into my prefrontal cortex and I won't be amygdala-hijacked, fight and flight. Just think about the future when that happens and you'll be the adult.
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John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let's resume now with the balance of today's programming.
Jim Daly: John, we have another parent who wants to ask a question. Let's hear what their question is.
Guest (Female): One of my twins in particular has always just been a little more emotionally sensitive boy. Where it's coming out now in these pre-teen years is just kind of like an overall moodiness or sullenness. Really, it pushes my buttons. Just the facial expressions and just the kind of like "woe is me-ism" where I'm trying to, we really want our kids to see all the good that God has for them. So how do you handle that without heaping shame?
Dr. John Townsend: In terms of the boundaries part, when there's misbehavior with a sensitive teen, it doesn't mean you drop the rule and say, "Well, if you're upset, if it's going to make you discouraged..." If it's a reasonable boundary about behavior or conduct, these sort of things, you've got to hold the rule, but you do need to listen more. Instead of saying stop feeling moody, get happy—it never worked with me—is when you keep the structure but you also say, "Tell me more about it." When the child feels understood, that my parent is with me even though I'm down—think about David in the Psalms, he was always complaining to God and that's why we know it's okay, and God was okay with it. The child begins to feel like, "You're in the well with me. I do feel bad about my dating life, or I'm not doing well in sports or whatever," and the parent comes in and says, "I know, that's tough." The child feels like I'm in this empty well of pain but you're not talking me out of it. You're in the well with me, giving me grace and atonement, and the child begins to think this is okay. But don't drop the structure and the responsibility at the same time. It's a win-win, not a zero-sum game.
Jim Daly: John, let me ask you this. How can parents teach their children to manage their own responsibilities?
Dr. John Townsend: I can give you the big picture in four words, if it helps with this, because this is the question. How do you incentivize kids to make good choices with the boundary thing? The first thing is love, because no child can take a boundary or a rule or a job or an obligation unless they know they're loved, because they're going to be disheartened. None of us can do things if we think somebody's not on our side and on our team. So you've got to love them and let them know and be attached to them. The second thing is you've got to give them the rules. Here's the truth. The truth is this is how we conduct things in our house. So they know it. They've got to be informed. It's not okay to say, "I'm going to give you a consequence" and they never knew. Here's the house rules. Can I tell a funny story about that?
Jim Daly: Yeah.
Dr. John Townsend: There's universal house rules like obey parents and help out with chores and do your homework, and then there's those ones that are particular to your child. Like your child's personality. Like with an extrovert, then you take away their phone because they love social stuff. With the introvert, then they can't have a lot of alone time. I mean, you know the child. Barbie and I when the kids were small, we had horrible bathroom things. They'd just go, I don't know what it was about the bathroom and brushing teeth. They would just do these things. And finally we're writing things like, "Don't put toothpaste on the dog." It was like so particular. And so we finally got, "Wait a minute, this is leave the bathroom like you found it." Okay. So you've got to go to the universal rules and the particular rules. The second thing is the truth, the rule. The third thing, and this is what's so scary for parents, especially Christian parents, is freedom. You've got to be free to disobey. Because if you're not free to disobey, you'll never learn. And the parents that are uber, uber controlling and kind of rigid, the kid never has a chance to disobey and watch what happens later in life in college. I want to emphasize this because this is really good. It's kind of another light bulb. It feels like as we're parenting in our limited ability, and that's okay—we haven't done this before, didn't come with a manual—you're learning as you go. And how many parents want a do-over? You ever say that to Dina? I've said that to Jean, I wish I could have a do-over. But in that regard, it's okay for the child to fail. You actually want them to and then be that net to help them learn from that and to do better next time. I think we had a goal of zero failure rate. That's so unhealthy for the child, and that would be a do-over for me: to be more engaged with our boys to allow them to fail and allow them to be healthy in that.
Dr. John Townsend: Right. Now there's certain limits to that. You don't tell a three-year-old they can run out in traffic. That's awful. But yeah, they need to be able to fail because there's no learning without it. You take Joshua 24, it says choose this day who you're going to serve. God even says, "I'm not going to make you do this. There's no 'have to' here." Especially in those middle years, guys, you want to be around when they fail. So I didn't want, we didn't want perfect children in those ages because we had this suspicion that if they were perfect with us and we couldn't be around to monitor things and guide things, in college it's going to be a nightmare. Correct. We always felt a little insecure around some parents that their kids are just kicking it and just "how can I please my parents" during the junior high years and the high school years. And we were thinking, "Gosh, we're not that." And then we found out these nightmares happen in college because now they learned how to choose. So freedom is a good thing. The first step is the love, the second thing, here's the rule, that's the boundary, the third is the freedom to fail and to disobey, and the fourth is reality consequences. Here's what happens.
John Fuller: You know, in terms of responsibility, Dr. Townsend, there is a moment most of us parents face where our child says, "I can't do it." And there's something in what you just said that is making me wonder, how do we handle those moments because we aspire to actually "you can do that" because we think you can. But how do we help our child understand the difference between "I just don't want to do that" or "I don't think I can," and "my parents really want me to"?
Dr. John Townsend: You start with what I call OJT, on-the-job training. Walk them through it. Here's how you feed the dog. Here's how you learn how to cook. So you walk through them as you would with a job. So then they go, "I'm getting that capacity because mom and dad are training me." And then there's a learning curve. They don't walk the dog right or they only sit still for 10 minutes or whatever. And the learning curve means mistakes, and you're just compassionate about that, but you stick with it. Next, you empathize with the complaining. Let them complain about it as long as they're doing it. Don't trigger. So many parents who don't like the attitude and you either criticize them and shame them or you cave in and say, "Well, you're upset," but don't do either one of those. Just empathize. "I know it's tough, get back to work." And then you praise the success. That's how kids learn competency in life for a skill or a marriage or faith.
Jim Daly: Let's hear one more question before we end today, and I want us to come back tomorrow if you're willing and we'll keep this rolling because it's so good for parents to really understand boundaries. Let's listen to this question.
Guest (Female): My question relates to my 14-month-old. I'm a first-time mother to a beautiful little girl and I'm finding myself saying the word "no" to her a lot more than I ever thought I would. And she now says "no" back to me and it feels like a little bit of a game. I'm just wondering how can I implement boundaries, how can I deter her from doing things that are unsafe? How can I get her to stop doing things I don't want her to do without the use of the word "no", especially during a season where communication is limited right now with the skills that she has? So any feedback would be much appreciated. Thank you again. Bye.
Jim Daly: This is the ultimate question for parents: how we get into this "no" debate. It's like a tennis match where the ball is the word "no" and it's going back and forth over the net. It really is.
Dr. John Townsend: Well, let me pose another way to look at this. Why toddlerhood to avoid "no"? Might as well stop it in early childhood or late childhood or early adolescence or late—maybe saying "no" is a bad thing all the way through life. Well, there's going to be a nightmare. Let's don't just think about the toddlerhood. If you don't like the word "no", there's a problem because it's a great word. What does Matthew 5 say? Let your "yes" be "yes", your "no" be "no". It helps us, it gives us structure. The only group that shouldn't really have a lot of "no" is like we talked about earlier, the infant. They really can't metabolize or digest that. But a toddler on, they need it and they learn it and I'm so happy with this caller because her child is responding with her own "no", meaning, "I'm developing an identity. I'm going to protect myself. I might have a good relationship and not let anybody gaslight me." When the toddler says/does what you don't like and you say "no", and it's a firm "no", and it's a nice "no", but it's not a mean "no", then they begin to protest. Set the consequence, make it a reasonable consequence, and after it's become like normal, normalized, that this is the way my family is, this is the way mom and dad are, they calm down. It's like the rails of the crib for a baby. Structure brings security. A kid without a "no" in their lives is more insecure. If you look at the long-term research on parenting, it's really, really interesting. There are two factors of all these studies about what makes a nice person by age 21, from zero to 21, two factors. One is appropriate warmth: real warmth, listening, getting down on their level, caring. And the second is appropriate structure and strictness. That's the two that matter. Unfortunately as parents, we tend to see those as very different things. And like most of life, we lean into one and not the other. And when you do that in an imbalanced way, you end up with problems either way. And you end up with the split parent problem. The Disney parent and the uber strict parent. And then the child learns, "Here's what I have fun, I can do what I want. And here's the one that I'm kind of afraid of and resentful." Parents need to be integrated in what the Bible calls grace and truth.
Jim Daly: That's good. John, right at the end here, I want to cover one thing that seems to be kind of a phenomenon amongst younger parents right now, this idea of avoiding the word "no". That it's not a healthy thing and I think they refer to as gentle parenting. Speak to that issue. It's kind of touching on this idea of being out of balance in one direction. Some of the best advice I ever got from a friend, he said try to say "yes" in your parenting more than "no". But that came to activity, you know, when your son asks you, or your daughter, "Do you want to play catch?" Try to say yes. Don't say no I'm busy. And that's how he was applying it. I think that's a distinction too. Say yes when it comes to things your child wants to do after work or whatever it might be, rather than saying I'm really tired, I'm busy, whatever. Then there's this "don't say no in order to be gentle on the child." Speak to that.
Dr. John Townsend: I think that the gentle parenting thought pattern, there's some strengths in it. One is they tend to be more emotionally attuned to how the child is feeling. It's very important, the attunement's a big deal. Also, I think it's good to sometimes explain the "why" instead of just "I'm the mommy all the time because I'm the parent." Well, sometimes you have to do that, but sometimes it's helpful to say "because you might hurt somebody's feelings" or "because we want you to be success." And the fact that it's kind of anti-harshness, well, harshness can really damage a child. But here's the weaknesses I think. No matter how warm we are and how attuned emotional we are, it can become permissiveness. And then the child doesn't learn structure and responsibility. Also, there's an over-validating, they call it sometimes, of always over-praising everything. And that can deregulate the neurology of a child's brain because they know that they're not that great and they begin to feel like they're a sham. You're telling me I'm going to be the next president? Well, maybe I am, but right now I can't even make it through my classes. So they feel this disconnect. The over-praising can be a problem. Also the collaborative conversation instead of "no": "let's work this out together." What that does is the child begins to think, "I'm in charge here too, right? I'm just like these guys are, these big people." I got a vote. I got a big vote. And instead of "I'm going to be in a world where there are authority figures and there's a God who owns everything and there's bosses and all this sort of thing," it becomes more confusing for them. And sometimes creates a sense of entitlement and the inability—this is the big one—the inability to tolerate life's limits. That's big and it seems epidemic right now.
Jim Daly: John, like I said, this is great. Let's go another day and cover some more of the content in the book. And what a great book it is, Dr. John Townsend with his co-author Henry Cloud, *Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children*. Make a donation of any amount to Focus and we'll send you the book as our way of saying thanks for being part of the ministry. And just know that you're supporting something that we are having an impact. I think last year alone we were able to help 470,000 families prepare for that parenting journey. That's a good thing, and we're really grateful that Focus is having that kind of impact.
John Fuller: Yeah, and we need your continued financial support to keep doing that kind of work to support parents. So please make a monthly gift if you can, or a one-time donation. When you do, request your copy of *Boundaries with Kids*. We'll be happy to send that out to you. Just call 1-800-A-FAMILY, 1-800-232-6459, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/weekend. While you're at the website, be sure to sign up for our Age & Stage newsletter. You get free resources straight to your email inbox, tailored to the age and stage of each of your children. We've got the details right there on the site for you. And Dr. Townsend, you're involved with raising up the next generation of strong Christian counselors through your efforts at Concordia. Tell us more about that.
Dr. John Townsend: It's the Townsend Institute for Leadership and Counseling at Concordia University in Irvine, California. It's for people that want an opportunity to enhance their career, get a new career, move up the ladder. We're a fully accredited remote graduate degree school. We got three programs. You can get a master's or certificate in counseling, or in organizational leadership, or in executive coaching and consulting. And we have now a PhD in counseling, and actually *Forbes* magazine made us the number one remote PhD in counseling. We're really happy about that. We have hundreds of students, they're getting great jobs. We're at the bottom third of expensive schools like ours, and we have these great guest experts: people like Henry Cloud, Patrick Lencioni. There's a person named Jim Daly who speaks with our students who's very well known. It's always fun to talk to the students. So yeah, we're at townsendinstitute.com.
John Fuller: And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Dr. Townsend and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Jim Daly: You're listening to Focus on the Family's weekend broadcast. We'll take a quick break and then return with the second half of this program for your family. Stay tuned.
Host (Male): Parenting is one of life's greatest joys and biggest challenges too. You want to raise kids who love Jesus, but with everything on your plate, it's hard to find the time or the right guidance. That's why we created the Practice Makes Parent podcast for parents just like you, navigating the ups and downs of raising a family in today's world. Find Practice Makes Parent and other faith-building podcasts at focusonthefamily.com/podcast. That's focusonthefamily.com/podcast.
Dr. John Townsend: Help the child learn that life is not about avoiding pain. Because sometimes our culture teaches them it's about being happy and avoiding all kinds of pain and they stay immature. Actually embrace it, make it your ally.
John Fuller: That's Dr. John Townsend and he's back with us again today on Focus on the Family talking about how you can implement healthy boundaries with your children. Thanks for joining us, I'm John Fuller.
Jim Daly: Yesterday we talked about teaching kids to accept the consequences of their actions. I think most parents struggle with that. Then we covered the strengths and weaknesses of gentle parenting and really defining boundaries and how we get onto a healthy, regular, reinforced boundary approach to really help your child to mature and grow in the healthiest way possible. Today we're going to talk about some key concepts including the steps to helping kids develop their own sense of right and wrong, which as we talked about yesterday with Dr. Townsend, "no" is actually a good thing for a child to learn. It starts to develop their identity and you want that child in later teen years to be able to say "no". So that's a good thing, it's not an error if they're pushing back a little. But how do we do this constructively? It's going to be a great conversation.
John Fuller: I hope if you missed last time, get the Focus on the Family app so you can hear it and hear all the inventory here at Focus on the Family. Dr. Townsend has co-written a book with Dr. Henry Cloud, really is a classic, it's called *Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children*, and we'll encourage you to get a copy when you contact us.
Jim Daly: John, welcome back to the program.
Dr. John Townsend: Thanks, guys. You know I was thinking when you read that part about Henry and I writing this, it came about because all the boundaries work was working and then people came along and parents said, "We'd like to help our kids with this boundary thing before they have the train wrecks and the pain that we had in our adult lives." So can you write in a more preventative level? But thank you to the parents who've asked for that.
Jim Daly: Yeah, that's so, so good. Let me start here. What does it look like for kids to learn to respect the boundaries of others?
Dr. John Townsend: They don't start off that way because their life is all about me. And mom and dad exist to serve me and that's okay for a while, but sooner or later you're going to be in a world of relationships and they have to learn this. And there are some relational "no"s they have to learn. As young children, don't hurt someone. I mean, it's fundamental. Don't trespass on someone's things, and especially don't punish another kid's "no". If a kid disagrees, don't make them bad because they've got to have a choice. How do you do that? Well, you have empathy for it because it's hard for them, but you correct them and you give them consequences for their disrespect. Even if they don't like it, they have to learn that mom and dad don't like disrespect of themselves and other people. But here's another really important part: they'll learn to respect other people's boundaries when you establish your own separateness as a parent. For example, the child wants to do something and you've already played with them for a long time and now you want to, I don't know, do a crossword puzzle. And the child comes up again and says play with me. And sometimes the parent's tempted to say, "Well, I got to be a good parent even though I spent two hours here, I'll put my puzzle aside." The best thing to say is, "No, I'm going to do a puzzle right now. That's what I need to do, but you can play." And all of a sudden the child's in a world where "Oh, you're not always available when I always need you, I've got to respect that." So insist on your own separateness as well as the child's.
Jim Daly: You know, we've had Dr. Ken Wilgus here. You might know Dr. Ken Wilgus, great guy. He wrote the funniest book title which was *Feeding the Mouth That Bites You: How to Emancipate Your Teenagers into Adulthood*. And it really is in this area that I'm about to ask you and that's giving kids some age-appropriate freedom to help them separate themselves in a healthy way from the parent. For example, he would say at some point you let your 13, 14-year-old own their room. And his rules were you just don't have nothing can be stinky or rotting. Hopefully we've taught you how to keep your room nicely, but that's it and you hand it over and you don't take it back. Is that a good thing?
Dr. John Townsend: That is so wise. It comes down to what in the book we call the law of sowing and reaping. Think about how we all learn as humans, not just kids. We learn when we reap what we sow. Look at freedom. How can they sow when they don't have a choice? You've got to have freedom to make a bad choice to sow so you can reap. They have to be free to sow positive things or negative things otherwise there's no reaping and no learning and no growing.
Jim Daly: That's so amazing. Let's talk about unconditional love. You know, this one I have this banter in my own head when you're saying, "I love you, I love you so much. You're never going to know how much I love you. Put that down." If you don't respond and it totally communicates my love is conditional. I think parents we have this inner struggle going: am I loving this child unconditionally or am I putting all the conditions on it because they're not performing or behaving the way that I want them to? Speak to that dilemma and then what is healthy, real, unconditional love look like?
Dr. John Townsend: Let's start with what that really is. Think about God. He doesn't, I don't know about you guys, but he hasn't answered all my prayers this year. But I know he loves me all the time. And so it doesn't—some people think that unconditional love is always feeling good feelings toward and always gratifying the child. "I feel good toward you, I'm always—that's love." Well, that can be hate. You can make a drug addict out of that. So love is really a stance of "I'm for you and I want your best." And if we can change it from the feeling and gratification to it's a mental state that makes me want to do the very best for you even if it's uncomfortable, that's unconditional love. I don't have to feel good feelings when my kid's screaming and yelling and causing a mess, but I shouldn't be harsh, but I should be direct, but I know I'm doing the surgery that's needed right now.
Jim Daly: So unconditional love is "Hey, I didn't kick you out of the house." And hate might be I did kick out of the house too early instead of when she should. That's the whole balancing feature of parenting. Let's hear a clip like we did yesterday. Let's hear a clip from a dad on setting boundaries.
Guest (Male): My two sons are 24 and 26 years old and they don't really help out with the bills or rent. And what little money they make is spent on drugs. My younger son is trying but he sees his older brother getting away with stuff and he just follows in his footsteps. I don't believe it.
Dr. John Townsend: My heart just sank to hear this man. Whoever you are, man, I'm so sorry, I'll say a prayer. Let me provide a sort of a path here for this gentleman who's kind of living a nightmare. You're going to need support. Whatever's gone on in the house with two grown young men who are doing drugs and not spending any on the right things and this sort of thing, you're going to need to get external support to—don't do this on your own. Get a good church, a good Christian therapist, get people around you who have the same values because for you to change this is going to take some time. Number one, I think you're going to have to get, once you've got the support systems in, you're going to have to insist on a drug-free home. I mean, that's just you can't compromise on that. And there're going to have to be some rules that you'll probably need help with in constructing such as "Here's what will keep you in the house for as long as until you're ready to launch," because they do need to launch sooner or later, and "Here's what won't." There are good counselors and therapists that can help you make a plan. You're going to need to chart a path for autonomy that your sons are not ready for. So I want you to start as Stephen Covey says, with the end in mind. The end in mind is that they're out of your house. They can't be happy with that or fulfilled with that. Out of the house, autonomous, free, working somewhere, drug-free. So what does it take to create that? Get the long run in mind. That means some of them may need a coach or a counselor. They also may need to know some house rules that you're going to enforce and they may need to have the consequences of "You can stay here if you don't do drugs. If you can't, I'm sorry, you're going to be out of the house." I've had to do that with many parents who said, "Well, what will they do?" Well, they'll probably sleep on a friend's couch for a while and eat pizza and then find out, "Gosh, it's better being in a home like the prodigal son." But you're going to have to have the rules and enforce those and all the same time letting these young men know that you love them even though they will say that you hate them. You're providing, you're providing experts, you're providing structure, you're providing a way and a path for autonomy and leaving and cleaving that they don't possess.
Jim Daly: John, you encourage parents in the book to consider pain a good experience. It can be a good experience for them to know the bottom. And we all say this in the Christian community, it's important for your children to go to a valley if that's where God needs to meet them. One of the most I think challenging questions I ever received is would you be willing to let God take your kids through that valley? I think that's the hardest prayer any of us can pray, but it's a good one. And tell us why. Why is pain helpful?
Dr. John Townsend: Well, let's start with Hebrews 12 where it says all discipline seems painful but it brings the peaceable fruit of righteousness. God's very clear and he's the being that created neuroscience and parenting in the first place. And we want our kids to live a life of being right, living the right life. And so pain teaches us things. Now we're not talking about the wrong kind of pain. We don't want to damage the child. We don't mind them being uncomfortable. Discomfort is very different than damage. So evaluate if it's the right kind of pain that will help them mature and thrive. But yes, help the child learn that life is not about avoiding pain. Because sometimes our culture teaches them it's about being happy and avoiding all kinds of pain and they stay immature. Actually embrace it, make it your ally. Learn to deal with a difficult teacher. Learn to deal with that bully. Learn to deal with a sport you haven't done or a course you haven't taken and look what happens on the other end when you succeeded. And so all of a sudden they realize pain is my friend, it's my ally.
Jim Daly: Yeah, but it's again hard to stand there as a parent and allow that to happen, but you got to do your best to let God do his best.
Dr. John Townsend: And that's when we need community. Those parents who are like-minded and you can call them and say, "I'm so sad, my child's crying and they're discouraged, but it was a legitimate boundary and a consequence," and the parent goes, "Stick with it, stick with it." And if you tell your child stick with it, that child takes that in and when they're 30 they'll go, "I've got a hard job, I've got a hard marriage, I can still stick with it," because I've done it before. It's the internalization.
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John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let's resume now with the balance of today's programming.
Jim Daly: John, let's play another question about boundaries.
Guest (Female): Hi, I have a question. My son is very energetic, likes to be active, likes play sports and all these things. But I find it hard to get him to actually sit and listen. He's six years old and I was wondering what would be a good way to teach him the importance of listening and having good listening skills.
Dr. John Townsend: Six is a great age to learn that. And at six, especially boys, a lot of times girls too, you're interested more in your activities and you're interested more in what you have to say and not what anybody else has to say. So I would address this very directly with your son just like any parent does. "Here's how you clean your room, here's how you set up for the table." I would say, "I want to help you learn to listen because this is something that I think you're kind of challenged in, it's going to be very important to you." And so you just tell him this is how you have great relationships, this is how people like you better, this is where you learn things. Now sometimes a six-year-old who's really into activities will just blow that off, but it's in there somewhere because you have to give them the framework first of why this is important. And then the second thing is you give them examples and say, "When I was trying to tell you something about X, a movie we saw or something we did at church, and you kept changing the subject and talking about yourself, it didn't work between you and me and you and I weren't that close," and all of a sudden they realize, "Oh, it affects my relationships." And then sometimes a child will say, "Well, what do I do?" Well, teach them the basics of asking questions. Stop talking and then say, "How are you doing? What did you think? How was your day?" And teach them those basic questions that everybody's got to learn, three or four of them that can get somebody to open up. And then have them practice that with their friends and all of a sudden now they're the captain of the team. Now, if none of that is working, that's when you have to say, "In our home we're going to need to have you talk and then listen and talk and then listen. And if you can't stop talking, sweetheart, we don't want to do that but there might be a consequence for that because you talking all the time and not listening is kind of hard on the whole family, it's not good for you." Hopefully it'll be done before you have to go to the consequence, but I've had parents have to do that: say "It's your turn to stop talking and start listening" and make that a norm so they do it in the real life.
Jim Daly: It's so funny, I'm laughing because when I was a child, my mom's best friend Penny. And I think I was just talking way too much. Not knowing that I would be sitting behind a microphone someday, but she said to me, she just turned to me and she said, "Jimmy, you've got diarrhea of the mouth." Talk about making an impact on a child. I still remember that. I know where I was standing when she said it. I and you know my immediate response? I just went quiet because I thought, "Oh, I didn't know." But I mean to this day I think it centered me on being able to be quieter so I can actually hear the person across the table from me. But you know somebody might look at that and say that was harsh, but it did have a positive impact in my life. I don't know, I think back on it now I laugh because who would have known I would end up in communications as a profession. It's richly ironic, isn't it? But anyway, so let me ask you this. You in the book, you describe three realities. Let's spend a little time here and speak to the three realities of setting boundaries.
Dr. John Townsend: It's very simple and sometimes since parenting is so complicated we get into details that we don't need to get to. But if you can remember these three things it'll really help. Is first, there's a problem and your child's not perfect. Your child's not perfect and it's just the way it is. And if you can say that and realize, "You know, we're born into the world in an imperfect world and my child needs training and my child needs growth," you're okay. That makes us all relax to know my child's not perfect, they're just a work in progress. Next is plug in. You need relationships. It takes a church, it takes family, it takes neighbors. Don't do this alone. Not even with a great spouse. We need other people's perspective and strength. And then the big one, I think besides that, is grow in your own character, in your own boundaries. When you have your own boundaries, your child's living around a grown-up who can make hard decisions, do the right thing and succeed, and they see that and they want that.
Jim Daly: Connecting that to the first one, I think one of the things I think I did well was to show my boys that I'm not perfect. We know the child isn't perfect, and sometimes in parenting we can reinforce that all day long. But what helps, I think what really helped for my sons, was when I could confess that I'm not perfect, I made that—I blew that. I remember one time saying to Trent after, you know, I think I disciplined him for something and it was probably too much energy. And I said to him, "I'm sorry, I really reacted to that in a way that I shouldn't have reacted." And he had the biggest smile on his face. He was probably eight. And I said, "Why are you smiling like that?" He goes, "I didn't know parents had to apologize." What a light bulb moment. What a light bulb, and it was a good thing. And I think maybe you see these lessons that you lay down for your kids, that was probably one of the brighter lessons that I was able to get to.
Dr. John Townsend: The funny thing about that, Jim, is we think it's a big deal that we let them know we're not perfect. They know. They've been watching. They're just waiting to see, "Are they going to ever admit what I already know?" And in what you did, I love that rupture and repair dynamic of once you know you've screwed up, how fast can you repair it? And kids do get that eight-year-old smile like, "Okay, things are okay." Don't wait, do it quickly.
Jim Daly: In the context of the third of the realities, there's a concept in there you said: "Time does not heal all." We tend to use that so freely in our culture. Time will take care of it. We lose a loved one, time will heal that. It's partially true, isn't it?
Dr. John Townsend: When you go to your doctor with a bacterial infection, does she say, "Well, time's going to heal this"? No. She says, "It's going to take time." Time is a necessary but insufficient condition. You must have it, it's not enough because there're two other elements. It's time plus grace plus truth will do anything. Grace is the love of God, the love of other people, the support and information, truth, principles, structures, these sort of things. Time will do it as long as there's grace and truth involved.
Jim Daly: For our parents that are in the middle of work and life and orchestrating all of that, and let's not talk about the in-laws and Christmas and Thanksgiving and all the stuff that happens throughout the year, "You want me to do what, Dr. Townsend? Teach boundaries to our kids?" Make the pitch for why doing this actually saves you so much work later.
Dr. John Townsend: There's a "why" here. And the "why" here is because it's not now, it's about the future. The family is an oven where you take this little bitty being and then you take it through all these experiences and these growth things and then they come out hopefully a functional, loving adult. They can love, they can work, their life is in place. And that's what our job is about. If you can tolerate the tough thing about the attitude problem now, or the disrespect, or the chaos and think, "I'm making something later that'll be good for her and good for me." The parent's job is to bring the future into the present and say, "We're doing these things because we want you to be a strong person, a happy person, and an in-control person."
Jim Daly: One of the things, and we've talked with Dr. Kevin Leman, and you know him well as a friend. The birth order, personality, temperament must play into this a bit. And we saw that in our own children. Each child is unique. So we had the strong-willed child, then we had the more passive child. And you do have to, I would think—and maybe you disagree with this—I would think you have to kind of adjust these approaches of boundaries to the temperament of your child a bit. Not in the concreteness of them, but maybe in the way they're delivered or how would you answer that question about how I deal with the type of child I have?
Dr. John Townsend: Absolutely, I totally agree with that. The basics are the basics. There are house rules that we will always keep and we will stick to. But you have to customize it according to the temperament of the child, which is just built in and baked in from the DNA. And when you do that, everybody wins. So it's the communication style, it's how direct you are, it's how much you listen. As long as the basics are working and you're doing it their way, everything works.
Jim Daly: And I think it's so good because, again, with my oldest son, it's very linear for him, very logic-driven. He just wants to know. I remember saying to him, once he had his license, we had a midnight curfew, and I said to him, "You know, be home by midnight." And he said, "Why?" And I said, "One, it's the time limit and two, nothing good happens with teenagers after midnight." And he said to me, "Do you have empirical data to support that?" That was exactly what he said. And my other son, who's much more feeler, I had the same chat with him two years later, and he said, "Okay, Dad, I think you're right." Very different responses, right? But that's the point: that you have to know your child, which takes a bit of work, and then apply those principles accordingly.
Dr. John Townsend: Just like you'd like to be treated. Well, there you go. I think that's in scripture, isn't it?
Jim Daly: John, this has been great. Thank you so much for, man, a lifetime of learning when it comes to neuroscience and therapy and psychology, but mostly the biblical application of this. And you've said it a couple of times here that the Lord is the creator of neural pathways. And we're finding that more and more, and I just love the way you blend that first as a Christian, but secondly as a professional who works on the mind. I mean, these are important things to know, and that's the goal of us as parents is to, I hope, to create the healthiest adult children that we can because in that we're honoring the Lord with our responsibility as the parent, right?
Dr. John Townsend: Yes, that's true, Jim. And I've just got to thank you for all the years of keeping the mission, the vision straight. I can't tell you how many parents I have referred to you whose lives and parenting were saved over the years because there was a message, there were skills, there was help that nobody else was putting out.
Jim Daly: Well, thank you so much, Dr. Townsend. It really helps when people like you sit at the microphone here and we can talk about it together. And that's the invitation. If this has sparked awareness for you or you know somebody that needs this book, get a hold of us. When you make a monthly pledge of any amount, we'll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you for joining the ministry, and together we're helping more people. Your donations allow us to serve parents who are struggling. One listener said this: "I have learned so much from you and love the biblical parenting truths you encourage us with. Thank you for your time and energy, your ministry has been a source of hope and comfort as we tackle parenting." We need year-round donations to keep creating resources and offering support. So be that partner with us, make an impact for Christ for generations.
John Fuller: Donate today and by the way, if a monthly gift isn't possible right now, we'll certainly appreciate your one-time gift of any amount. Donate today, get a copy of Dr. Townsend's book *Boundaries with Kids* when you call 1-800-A-FAMILY, 1-800-232-6459, or online at focusonthefamily.com/weekend. While you're at our website, be sure to sign up for our Age & Stage newsletters. You'll get a free weekly newsletter straight to your inbox, specifically geared for the age and stage each of your children are in as they grow. It's incredible information, it's free, and you'll find the link on our website. And Dr. Townsend, you're involved with raising up the next generation of strong Christian counselors through your efforts at Concordia. Tell us more about that.
Dr. John Townsend: It's the Townsend Institute for Leadership and Counseling at Concordia University in Irvine, California. It's for people that want an opportunity to enhance their career, get a new career, move up the ladder. We're a fully accredited remote graduate degree school. We got three programs. You can get a master's or certificate in counseling, or in organizational leadership, or in executive coaching and consulting. And we have now a PhD in counseling, and actually *Forbes* magazine made us the number one remote PhD in counseling. We're really happy about that. We have hundreds of students, they're getting great jobs. We're at the bottom third of expensive schools like ours, and we have these great guest experts: people like Henry Cloud, Patrick Lencioni. There's a person named Jim Daly who speaks with our students who's very well known. It's always fun to talk to the students. So yeah, we're at townsendinstitute.com.
John Fuller: On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family Weekend. For more shows and encouragement for your entire family, stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Final Out.