The Narrow Path 10/06/2026

Steve Gregg: Good afternoon, and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for an hour. This is true virtually every weekday in the afternoon. We have an hour live together so that you can call in during the program. If you wish, you can ask questions about the Bible or the Christian faith and we'll discuss them on the air. You can also call in if you don't like the answers that have been given previously or you disagree with the host. You're always welcome to call in and tell us why. We'd love to talk to you. Of course, many people, probably most people who listen to the program are Christians because it's a topic that appeals to Christians. But Christians sometimes disagree with each other on things, and so we welcome you to do so. If you're not a Christian and you disagree with Christianity altogether, you're welcome to call in as well. We'd be glad to talk to you. We don't have any limits except that we'd like you to talk, let's just say, suitable for radio broadcast. Let me give you the number here. We have calls waiting, but the number to call is 844-484-5737. It looks like our lines are full. If you take this number down and call in a few minutes, you'll probably get through. 844-484-5737. This is the point where I make a few announcements. Not many, but tonight I'm speaking in Port Huron, Michigan on the four views of Revelation. Tomorrow I'm going to be talking about the Olivet Discourse and the Millennium in West Bloomfield Township, Michigan. If you think those are subjects I always talk about because I want to, I don't mind talking about them, but the subjects are assigned to me. I just come to teach on what people ask me to do. That's going to be in West Bloomfield tomorrow. There's two sessions, one is from 2:00 to 4:00 in the afternoon and one is from 7:00 to 9:00 in the evening. That's tomorrow afternoon and evening. Then on Wednesday, we need to let you know that if you usually participate in the Zoom meeting, which is the first Wednesday of the month, that's not going to be happening because of my teaching at that time. I'm sorry you'll have to miss it, but next month after that, I assume we'll be having it. Just know that tomorrow, Wednesday, we usually would have our Zoom meeting and that one's canceled because of my travels. Thursday, which is the day after tomorrow, I'll be speaking in Temperance, Michigan. I have to say I don't remember what I'm talking about there, but anyway, that's where I'll be. That'll be my last Michigan event here. West Bloomfield Township tomorrow, tonight I'm in Port Huron, and then on Thursday I'll be in Temperance, Michigan, which is not far from Toledo, Ohio. Anyway, those are what's left for me to do here. Again, very important if you're a regular participant in the Zoom meeting, that one is canceled this month. Sorry to say. All right, well our lines are indeed full, so we're going to go and talk to the people who have called in, including Patrick from Minster, Ohio. Hi, Patrick, welcome.
Patrick: Hi, Steve. First of all, it's such a blessing to talk to you. Thank you for your ministry and for all that you do for everyone who calls into your shows and meets up with you in person. My question today is in regard to Matthew chapter 18, verses 21 to 35, when Jesus gives the parable about the kingdom of heaven and the king that forgave the debt and the person who then goes out and strangles someone who owed him much less debt. It says that he was handed over to the jailer until he was able to repay that debt. Is this in reference to eternal punishment? It ends that parable by saying, "So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart." Thank you for your answers.
Steve Gregg: All right, thank you for your call. I'll talk about that. The parable he's referring to in Matthew 18 is a kind of a long one. It's when Peter said, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother? Seven times?" And Jesus said, "No, 77 times." He gave this story about forgiveness. He said there was a man who owed a huge, unpayable debt to his master or his king or to somebody, and he couldn't pay it, so the creditor just forgave him. He was released of that huge burden of debt just by the generosity of his king. He went out and found somebody who owed him a small debt, and the guy said, "Please give me time, I'll pay it." And he said, "No," and he threw him in debtors' prison. This is, of course, a picture of somebody who's been forgiven by Christ, a Christian by God, but he goes out and won't forgive his fellow man. Notice in it the debt that was owed to God, which has been forgiven, is much larger than the debt that anyone could owe you. Nobody has wronged you as much as you've wronged God. Therefore, God's forgiveness is much greater than what He asks you to do to forgive people's smaller, by comparison, debts. But the important thing is what happened then. The king heard about it. He was very angry that this forgiven servant was not merciful to this other servant who owed him a little bit. In the Greek it says he was given over to the tormentors. Modern translations say jailers in many cases, but he gave him over to the tormentors until he should pay all that was owed him. Then Jesus said, "So shall my Father in heaven do to you if you do not forgive everyone his trespasses." Now, by the way, He's talking to Peter and the disciples. They were alone in a room. Jesus was in a house with His disciples and it was Peter who asked the question He's answering. The "you" would be Peter and the apostles, Christians. You have been forgiven much, you're expected to forgive others. If you don't do it, this is what My Father will do to you. Many people feel that this is talking about the afterlife. Actually, since it says he's given over to the tormentors until he shall pay all that was owed his whole debt, this is one of the verses that Roman Catholics have used to talk about purgatory. They say it's not permanent, but you have to pay your debt, and so you're tormented there until you have done so. This is like a purgatory passage for the Catholics. Other people have thought this is saying that hell is a place where you'll eventually get out after you've paid what you owe, after you've been punished proportionally to what you deserve and you've paid that price. Then the implication is you'll be coming out. Of course, there's those who say no, this is actually talking about eternal conscious torment because he couldn't even pay when he was at liberty. He had to be forgiven because the debt was so crushingly large. How's he going to pay now when he's in prison? Therefore, although he's got to be there until he pays, he'll never pay and therefore it's permanent. These are different theories. I differ from all of them in this respect. I don't think Jesus mentioned anything about the guy dying. I don't think this is an after-death thing. It could be, but Jesus didn't mention it. There's no indication in the story that the man died and this is what happens to people after they die. It's like the king heard about this, he was angry, and he subjected this servant to torment or, apparently, disciplinary torment because the condition was when you pay what you've owed, presumably you can get out. You're there until you pay your debt. Here's the question: can a debt that you've been forgiven of be reimposed upon you? If God has forgiven us for all our sins and then we go out and don't forgive someone else, is He going to reimpose that debt and unforgive us? It almost seems like that would be the meaning, not just because the theological parallel would be strange and maybe wrong, but philosophically, if someone has forgiven you, they can't come back later and say I'm going to unforgive you. The person in question who did the forgiving and is unforgiving is a king. He can do whatever he wants to. But still, forgiveness is by nature something that releases a person, and unless they do something else, it really can't be imposed upon them. What I think is this: that he's saying that when you were forgiven by God, you now have your now indebted to God to forgive other people who've done wrong to you. That's the debt you have. You've been released from the original debt, but now you're indebted to something else. You've got an obligation to forgive. The man was thrown into, given over to the tormentors until he should pay what was owed. It doesn't mean that the original debt of millions and millions of dollars, which could never be paid, that that was now to be paid while he's in prison. That'd be impossible and unreasonable. But he has a debt to forgive. That's what God expects of him. Now, did the man go to hell because he didn't forgive? I don't think this necessarily is talking about hell. It's one possibility. There's several possibilities, but that I guess is one of them. I don't think it's talking about purgatory. I just don't think there's any indication in it that the torments that the man is given over to are post-mortem torments. I think there'd be something in this life that may be referred to. As far as I know, this life is the only life in which you're going to be able to forgive other people, and the man who's given over to the tormentors is still required to do that. I've known people who felt this refers to giving people over to the torment of demons. Of course, most Christians would say, well, if you're a Christian, you can't be given over to torment of demons. Though I don't know, I mean, the Bible doesn't actually say that. People have deduced that from some things the Bible does say. I've examined that many years ago because the question was raised whether Christians can have demons or not and be tormented by demons. I was taught they can't and there were about half a dozen scriptures that we had to support that. As I grew older and studied the Bible, I realized that all the scriptures that were given to support that actually don't specifically address that. All of them are talking about something else and we were extrapolating from certain scriptures about one thing and making them definitive and decisive about another subject. I'm not sure that can be done. I don't know that Christians cannot be tormented by demons. Paul said that his thorn in the flesh was a messenger from Satan. We might say that was a human messenger. It could be, he didn't say it was. A messenger actually means aggelos, an angel. The Bible does talk about the devil and his angels. I don't know. Was it a demon attacking Paul? And he was definitely tormented by it. It was a thorn in his flesh. Maybe. The thing is, we can't insist that it means something that it doesn't say, especially if there's other options. Some people might just say being given over to tormentors is God gives you over to the pangs of conscience until you forgive. Some think the tormentors are actual personal beings, demonic beings, and that people who are unforgiving are sometimes delivered over to the torments of demons until they forgive. It's interesting because there is the story of Saul and David in the Bible where when David became more popular than Saul, even though he'd just appeared as a public figure, David was honored by the people. They said Saul has slain his thousands, David has slain his ten thousands. Saul said, "Whoa, they've attributed ten thousands to David and only thousands to me. What can he have more than this than the kingdom?" It says in 1 Samuel that Saul viewed David with suspicion from that day forward, and it says the next day an evil spirit from the Lord came upon Saul. It sounds like Saul let the sun go down on his wrath, or he was not forgiving or gracious toward David, and the next day he got an evil spirit. And from where? From God. That evil spirit, it says, came from the Lord. Now that doesn't mean that the demons are God's servants, at least not willingly. They're the devil's servants, but the devil and the demons can do nothing except God allows it. God is sovereign, not the devil. The devil himself has to ask permission to go against Job, to do anything against Job, and when God gives him permission, He puts limits on it. God has the devil on a short leash because He's infinitely more powerful than the devil, and He did allow Satan, for example, to make Job sick and take his stuff and seemingly do great disasters in his life, and Job was a godly man. That was Satan himself going after him, but God allowed it. An evil spirit from God came on Saul, and it's not the only time in the Bible that it speaks of an evil spirit from God coming on someone. Paul says, for example, and this is not stating anything about an evil spirit specifically, but in Ephesians 4 he says, "Do not let the sun go down on your wrath, neither give place to the devil." It's like if you let the sun go down on your wrath, you may be opening the door to give place to the devil. So when Jesus said if this man didn't forgive his fellow servant, the master turns him over to tormentors until he should forgive him. He doesn't say until he forgives, he just says until you pay your debt, but it's impossible to imagine that a debt that is genuinely forgiven can righteously be reimposed. It seems to me that the first debt was forgiven permanently, but a new debt is upon a Christian when they've been forgiven. They're obligated to forgive others. And if they refuse to do so, Jesus said, "So shall my Father do to you if you don't forgive." He specifically tells the parable to tell us what God will do to Christians if they don't forgive. As strange or unpleasant as it seems, we can't really change the words of Jesus. We don't know what those tormentors are. Like I said, it may just be the torments of conscience or whatever, but it's not inconceivable that just as Saul had an unresolved anger toward David and the next day God sent an evil spirit against him, that that's what Jesus is warning against. I realize almost every Christian who thinks they know their Bible well will probably say Christians can't have demons. Sometimes they say Christians can be oppressed by demons but not possessed by demons. Well, there's nothing in the passage that talks about anyone being possessed by demons. I mean, that terminology is not used. On the other hand, the Bible never uses the term oppressed by demons. It's just not a term in the Bible. So whoever says a Christian can be oppressed but not possessed, they're making up terminology. They might even be making up the ideas since the Bible doesn't use those ideas or terminology. But the truth is, I'm not saying these people become demon possessed. I'm saying they become turned over to be tormented by them if that's what this is about. If it's not about that, then it's about something else. But as you can tell, I suspect very strongly that this is what it means. Those of you who are not familiar with this radio program, you might think that I'm one of those people that think you should agree with me. I don't think you should agree with me. I just answer questions the way I understand them. What you should do is go to the Bible and look things up yourself, be Bereans. No one needs to agree with me to be on good terms with God or even on good terms with me. So you ask, I answer. If people don't like the answer, they can call in and argue against it. You're welcome to do so, but that's how I would answer that point.
Patrick: Thank you so much, Steve.
Steve Gregg: All right, Patrick. Good talking to you, man. God bless you. All right, Michael from Denver, Colorado is next. Welcome, Michael.
Michael: Good afternoon, Steve. Great to speak with you again. I just had a quick question and then I'll listen over the air. Yesterday, Jim Bakker, who was a prominent televangelist, died at the age of 86. Obviously, Assemblies of God, hosted the 700 Club, and he was part of this charismatic movement in Christianity, the charismatic Christianity movement. I was just wondering what did you think about him as a Christian personality and what are some of your overall impressions of him as an evangelist?
Steve Gregg: Well, of course, what I think of Jim Bakker is of no consequence to him or anyone else. Really, what God thinks of him would be very important right now and I can't really say what God thinks. I will say this: I never liked Jim and Tammy Bakker. I'm talking about before they fell into scandal. When they fell into scandal, I wasn't shocked. They just never seemed genuine to me, but that was just me. I frankly felt the same way about Jimmy Swaggart before he was caught in scandal. I never watched them very much because I didn't like their ministries, but when I did have occasion to see them, my gut reaction was they're not the real deal. So that was just me. It turns out they were caught in scandal. Now, did that vindicate my thoughts about them? Not necessarily. A person who is the real deal can still fall into sin. It happens. So I'm not going to say they aren't Christians. All I can say is I was never impressed with their genuineness or their sincerity. And so it didn't shock me when they fell. Now Jim Bakker not only fell sexually, but he went to prison. He spent a lot of time there. I thought he was very badly treated by the justice system because he was a famous preacher on TV. As I recall, they gave him like 40 years. He probably got out earlier than that, but the sentence was crazy. I mean, it's about three times as long as you'd get if you murder someone, and what he had done was absconded with money. But I guess they wanted to make an example of him. And so he got a long sentence. I think he got out early, but he's been out at least 25 years now, I believe. I remember when he got out. But here's the thing: he was a Word of Faith teacher from the beginning. And then when he got in prison, he repented of that. I believe he repented of his sins. Billy Graham made contact with him and kind of befriended him, though Billy Graham is not a Word of Faith preacher. In fact, Billy Graham was not a Pentecostal at all. So Jim Bakker was really across the divide from Billy Graham theologically.